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\"You can\'t prove God doesn\'t exist!\"

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Zairak
#271   Posted 3 months ago, in reply to post #270 by agrajagthetestyReply
Perhaps you could expand on this by explaining more about your idea of bliss?
My idea of bliss would be to exist forever, no matter what sort of reality I would find myself in. Judging from your responses, the thought of existing forever is painful to you. The thought of getting bored with existence, having regrets over what you did or did not do previously, etc, sounds like it would be your idea of torture or Hell. I hope I've clarified my meaning a bit now.

Also, regarding the perpetual sleep scenario. That is, of course, what I also believe will happen, as I do not believe in existance after death. However, that is my idea of Hell. I am amazed I haven't entered into a deep depression over it, actually. Experiencing things and even the simple act of thinking are the only two things I enjoy in this existance. Having that stripped away...It repulses me. I can't imagine anything worse happening to me, honestly. Hence, my desire to learn more about why you hold the viewpoint you did.
I didn't feel berated as such, but it did seem as if you were offended or annoyed by what I said. I think perhaps I ought to clarify a little further: it's not that I look forward to death, or that I don't try my best to avoid it. It's simply that after thinking about it, I've decided that I would prefer oblivion to eternal life.
No need to worry about offending me. The only thing I find offensive or annoying in this world are those who refuse to change their viewpoint, even if they have been proven utterly wrong. In short, the willingly ignorant. Those who throw their opinions around without being willing to change them...These are the ones I cannot stand. You certainly do not seem like that type of person, so don't worry about it.

I think I understand your view now, even if I myself can't embrace it. Thanks for your time.

Now, I guess we should get back on topic. I apologise for getting slightly off track here, it's my nature. Now, I believe the thread was originally about the fact that you can't prove God doesn't exist, but since that seems to be a trivial point, for reasons already stated in this thread. That is, you shouldn't have to disprove something when no evidence has been offered. Since the only recent posters in here do not believe in an afterlife, perhaps you can think of a new topic or at least a new aspect of this one?
agrajagthetesty
#272   Posted 3 months ago, in reply to post #271 by ZairakReply
My idea of bliss would be to exist forever, no matter what sort of reality I would find myself in. Judging from your responses, the thought of existing forever is painful to you. The thought of getting bored with existence, having regrets over what you did or did not do previously, etc, sounds like it would be your idea of torture or Hell.
Thanks. I understand a lot better now.
The only thing I find offensive or annoying in this world are those who refuse to change their viewpoint, even if they have been proven utterly wrong. In short, the willingly ignorant. Those who throw their opinions around without being willing to change them...These are the ones I cannot stand.
And I can't imagine that there would be too many people who would disagree with you. Thanks go to you too. I've enjoyed having this discussion with you.

We touched briefly on the point of suffering and punishment a little earlier. Perhaps we could continue that debate? I'll pose a few questions:

If God exists, why does he make us suffer?
Why does he punish us for the nature and character traits he gave us?
Why do we have "original sin"?

That ought to be enough for now.
Zairak
#273   Posted 3 months agoReply
Hmm... Seems like interesting enough questions. Here goes...

My first hypothesis on the first question is that, assuming He does exist, He would be testing us, to make certain of our desire to be with Him for eternity. This is under a few assumptions, of course. For one thing, Hell wouldn't be quite what people traditionally think of it as. In this case, Hell would be defined as seperation from God for eternity, a viewpoint I have heard about multiple times. Secondly, it would only be logical for Him to want to make certain, given that we have free will, that we would be happy in Heaven, or being with God for eternity. Considering what happened the last time somebody was dissatisfied with Heaven (i.e. Satan's attempt to overthrow God), it would seem the best course. This 'suffering' would just be an efficient, if not exactly gentle, way of sorting the two groups.

For the second, operating under the same scenario as above, I can't say I think of God as having given us character traits. Our first ancestors would obviously have had a base nature given them by God, as well as possible character traits, but since free will was also something He gave us, obviously these would have changed over the millenia and constant changes of culture. As for the punishment part, I refer you to the above paragraph.

Lastly, I'll have to ask you to clarify what you mean by 'original sin'. I assume you are referencing the Adam and Eve incident, but I am not quite sure.

This is all, of course, assuming there is a God.
agrajagthetesty
#274   Posted 3 months ago, in reply to post #273 by ZairakReply
The reason I chose those particular questions is that I can't think of any decent answers for them and was hoping to sort that out a bit. In this case, my responses to your answers would be as follows:

Isn't God omniscient and omnipresent? In that case, doesn't he already know everything we're thinking and how the tests will end?

God is often said to have "created all of us". I suppose it depends on the relative effect which nature, nurture and free will have on our characters. But at the very least, he created our ancestors' nature, as you say. My problem is that if God knows everything, including how we will behave, how much free will do we actually have, and is it fair to punish us when he always knew we would sin?

I was referring to the idea that we have inherited the sin of Adam and Eve and thus are seen as "sinners" even before we are born. That is, the "sin" that used to mean unbaptized babies were sent to Limbo, not Heaven, even though they had never harmed another person or thought evil thoughts.
killshot
#275   Posted 3 months ago, in reply to post #274 by agrajagthetestyReply
...unbaptized babies were sent to Limbo, not Heaven, even though they had never harmed another person or thought evil thoughts.
Limbo is certainly an interesting topic for discussion. To me, Limbo seems like a product of our society trying to come to terms with the fact that the Christian religion is unjust in its methods of dishing out punishment. The Bible claims that anyone who has not accepted Jesus as their savior will be sent to hell. However, Christians must have realized that this criteria was unfair to newborns who have never had the chance to become Christians themselves. This is quite a predicament because according to the Bible, we are born sinners and unsaved sinners will be sent to hell.

Enter Limbo. A convenient way to free the Christians from the pain that comes from knowing their child might be in hell. Its easy to make up new lies to cover up the plot holes left by the old ones. I have a hunch that 90% of all Christians don't really believe in heaven and hell anyway (This bullshit statistic was brought to you by the makers of the Magic Bullet theory.) Since heaven is just a way to make Christians feel better about dieing, a place like Limbo can be dreamed up to serve a similar function. At this point, I think people know this stuff is made up, but believe it anyway because they are scared of the alternative (No one loves you, etc.)

I apologize for completely derailing the current conversation, but I didn't think any progress was going to be made since I remember seeing those topics come up earlier in the thread. I'd like to hear a theist's perspective on the subject of Limbo. I suppose if this deviation doesn't amount to anything we could talk about the director's cut version of the bible (with all the interesting parts left intact.)
darkarcher
Moderator
#276   Posted 3 months agoReply
I'd like to hear a theist's perspective on the subject of Limbo.
Right, then. From a theist's perspective...

I'm not sure where you're bringing up the concept of limbo from, as I cannot think of any Protestant Christian group that believes in something like that. If, however, you are referring to the archaic Catholic belief of Purgatory, I will oblige you.

Purgatory was primarily invented by the Church during the time of the Holy Roman Empire as a control over the people. Basically, if following the church could lessen your punishment in afterlife, then you'd be more motivated to do whatever the church tells you. This was also used as a method of taxes through the practice of Indulgences, where a tribute to the church could lessen the time in Purgatory of a loved one. The Protestant Reformation for the most part disbanded these beliefs to return to the original heaven/hell.

Now, along the subject of babies who die, the common belief is that children who die before the "age of accountability" - as it is normally called - will be allowed to enter heaven. The reasoning for this is that the criteria for heaven is based on a choice of a person to either be forgiven or to continue on their own. However, a young child cannot yet understand their own tendency to sin, or their need for forgiveness. Prior to their ability to actually understand sin and salvation, it is widely believed that children are allowed to remain innocent in God's eyes. This is mostly a concept conceived by biblical scholars, with the basis being a verse in the Old Testament where King David mentions one day being reunited with his deceased infant.

I'm not sure if this cleared things up at all, but I guess I'm still open to questions.
OverMind
#277   Posted 3 months ago, in reply to post #275 by killshotReply
I have a hunch that 90% of all Christians don't really believe in heaven and hell anyway (This bullshit statistic was brought to you by the makers of the Magic Bullet theory.) Since heaven is just a way to make Christians feel better about dieing, a place like Limbo can be dreamed up to serve a similar function. At this point, I think people know this stuff is made up, but believe it anyway because they are scared of the alternative (No one loves you, etc.)
You're referring to Kierkegaard's Leap of Faith idea here, whereby people cling onto "Safe Christianity". They follow the tenents of their faith not because they genuinely believe in it, but:

A. To avoid ostracism.
B. For comfort, perhaps related to A.
C. For their own gain (Not particularly relevant now, but apparently the church was a big thing back in Kierkegaard's time).

You'd think secular, Western society would only have a few fragments of it's Judeo-Christian influences left. Then, you'd realize an atheist has no chance of getting elected as President of the US (or, currently, anyway). In God we trust, but atheists? Eh, they seem like a bunch of shady characters to me.
killshot
#278   Posted 3 months ago, in reply to post #276 by darkarcherReply
I didn't know this belief had any sort of historical background. The first person I discussed the idea of Purgatory (she called it Limbo) with happened to be a Mormon. From what she told me, young children and people who have never heard the gospel would be sent to Limbo until they were old enough/educated enough to be sent to heaven. She was struggling with her beliefs and it seemed to me that she was a victim of the modern mentality on religion. She had a "believe what you want and God will sort it out in the end," kind of attitude. I've never looked far into Mormonism so I can't be sure if this is a mainstream belief.

You've mentioned babies going to heaven, but what about people who are ignorant of the word of God? I'm not talking about people like myself who choose not to believe, but people who have truly never heard of the Bible. This situation is what I believe keeps the belief in Purgatory alive. These people seem to fall between the cracks of the system. Surely God wouldn't send these people to hell, but according to the Christian religion they can't go to heaven either.

Thank you for explaining the origin of Limbo. I always enjoy learning where this stuff comes from.

agrajagthetesty
#279   Posted 3 months ago, in reply to post #276 by darkarcherReply
Limbo. Yes, all right, that's an interesting topic, and one that we haven't covered much.

Limbo, in all definitions of it that I have come across, is seen as a separate thing from purgatory. The idea of babies being seen as innocent didn't fit with the idea of "original sin", so limbo was used as a substitute for heaven and hell, where
unbaptised infants spend eternity but without communion with God.
That quote is taken from this article, which I think adds an interesting aspect to this subject: www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,,21595208-5001028,00.html

Closing limbo. Deciding that limbo, a concept which had been sold as fact for centuries, in fact does not exist.

Hmmm.
OverMind
#280   Posted 3 months ago, in reply to post #279 by agrajagthetestyReply
Deciding that limbo, a concept which had been sold as fact for centuries, in fact does not exist.
Perhaps Christianity is out of touch with its roots?

Anyone have any speculation on what Jesus would think of the religion crafted in his name if he were to show up today, sparking off the second coming?
Zairak
#281   Posted 3 months ago, in reply to post #280 by OverMindReply
To be technical, if He were to show up today, I doubt He would be surprised. Since Jesus and God are apparently the same entity, it seems only logical that Jesus too would be omniscient.
darkarcher
Moderator
#282   Posted 3 months agoReply
I'm not talking about people like myself who choose not to believe, but people who have truly never heard of the Bible. This situation is what I believe keeps the belief in Purgatory alive.
This is actually specifically mentioned in the Bible. The apostle Paul stated that the people who were not given the word of God originally (called Gentiles in the text) were still able to see evidences of God through nature.

Now, this boils down to what each individual interprets from the same data, sure. Not everyone sees nature and thinks "a god must have created this." However, even an extremely dull person can observe and come to conclusions, whether or not they are the correct conclusions is a different story. In short, there is evidence for a deity, should a person look and see it that way.

@ agrajagthetesty: Although I'm not going to refute the article you posted, I would still like to point out what seems to be a common fallacy today.

The Catholic Church is not all of Christianity. Just because something is on the records of the Catholic church does not mean that Christians today, Catholic or not, specifically believe it. I've seen time and time again where people point to Roman Catholicism as proof of some fact wrong in one way or another with Christianity as a whole.

The truth is, the current Catholic church is actually the remains of the Holy Roman Empire, which was more of a political body than anything else, and as with all political bodies, imperfect and prone to corruption. This corruption ravaged the Church of the middle ages, producing a large amount of "official" beliefs that had no Biblical backing whatsoever. The rise of Protestantism removed many (not all, mind you) of the corrupt beliefs that had taken a hold of the church.

I guess what I'm just trying to say is that although the Holy See is a representation of Christianity, it is neither the only representative, nor a representative at all, for a large portion of the Christian religion.
killshot
#283   Posted 3 months agoReply
The apostle Paul stated that the people who were not given the word of God originally (called Gentiles in the text) were still able to see evidences of God through nature.
I guess they did cover the bases after all. I don't necessarily think that's fair, but I don't make the rules.
agrajagthetesty
#284   Posted 3 months agoReply
The Catholic Church is not all of Christianity.
I do understand that. It's just that I have a tendency treat the Pope and the Vatican as the foremost spokespeople for Christianity as a whole. Maybe that's not fair, but they do get a lot of publicity. I actually find it a bit confusing that there are so many different branches of Christianity, and as such I tend to talk in a more general manner, partly because I know very little about, say, Mormonism, and partly because they all have the same god at least.
darkarcher
Moderator
#285   Posted 3 months ago, in reply to post #284 by agrajagthetestyReply
Right. I was merely addressing that presupposition in general since it appears to be fairly common.

I suppose I will wait on the next topic to arise, unless anyone wants to ask me a question while I'm feeling talkative.
OverMind
#286   Posted 3 months ago, in reply to post #285 by darkarcherReply
Now, this boils down to what each individual interprets from the same data, sure. Not everyone sees nature and thinks "a god must have created this." However, even an extremely dull person can observe and come to conclusions, whether or not they are the correct conclusions is a different story. In short, there is evidence for a deity, should a person look and see it that way.
Wait. What evidence are you referring to? I think I kind of understand what you are getting at, but you seem a little vague here.
darkarcher
Moderator
#287   Posted 3 months ago, in reply to post #286 by OverMindReply
That a person could--not necessarily that they will--look at nature and think that God or some sort of god could have created it. There's more to it than that, but I can't quite articulate what I'm trying to say in this instance.
OverMind
#288   Posted 3 months ago, in reply to post #287 by darkarcherReply
So this evidence really isn't only applicable to religion? But to interpretation?:

Life, in itself, is miraculous, for instance. A Christian may see the human body as a beautifully-crafted machine, designed at the hands of God. A scientist may see it as the outcome of millions of years of accidents and coincidences.

The same could be said about the Universe.
darkarcher
Moderator
#289   Posted 3 months ago, in reply to post #288 by OverMindReply
Indeed, and while it could be assumed that apart from the influence of popular science, a person would be more likely to assume the existance of a deity, that is not always the case.
Zairak
#290   Posted 2 months ago, in reply to post #289 by darkarcherReply
But then, what is science? From my understanding of it, science is simply the sum total of our current knowledge. Keeping this in mind, why shouldn't people be influenced by it? If we learn that certain things we formerly, and in some cases still do, attribute to a diety are in fact perfectly natural phenomenon, why would we continue to assume the existence of said diety? What then would be the point in gathering knowledge at all?

Then again, I could just be completely misinterpreting your post, assuming that there is a distinction between popular science and science.
darkarcher
Moderator
#291   Posted 2 months ago, in reply to post #290 by ZairakReply
You are correct. Science refers to what can be directly observed and understood, whereas my saying "popular science" would be those scientific theories that have yet to be proven but are widely proclaimed as fact erronously.
agrajagthetesty
#292   Posted 2 months agoReply
Those scientific theories that have yet to be proven but are widely proclaimed as fact erronously.
Such as?
darkarcher
Moderator
#293   Posted 2 months ago, in reply to post #292 by agrajagthetestyReply
*sighs* Evolution is a theory. The Big Bang is a theory. All of these are things that people proclaim to be fact. However, they have yet to be observed and proven.

Yes, I know the natural response to this is normally something like "Gravity is a theory, but it's obviously real." Yes, gravity is technically a theory, but for different reasons. We know that gravity exists. It can be observed and proven, but it remains a theory because we don't know what causes it, which puts it in a different category than the aforementioned concepts.
Zairak
#294   Posted 2 months ago, in reply to post #293 by darkarcherReply
Still, it seems odd to assume that some divine being was behind it all. I mean, what was the rationale behind assuming somebody had to have created it? Why did they assume that in the first place, if not through a simple lack of understanding of natural phenomenon? I just can't understand the rationale here. It's not as if somebody had to make it, yet our ancestors jumped right on that explanation.
darkarcher
Moderator
#295   Posted 2 months ago, in reply to post #294 by ZairakReply
It's one of the strangest tendencies of man. Some assume that they are the greatest of all things, while others prefer to think that there's something above them that brought about things. Both seem to be natural views.

1. People look around, see that they're smarter than everything else, and assume that they are the pinnacle of whatever there is.

2. People look around, see that there are many things that they don't understand, and assume that there's something greater than them, and assume something else greater than them could have had a hand in it.
Zairak
#296   Posted 2 months ago, in reply to post #295 by darkarcherReply
I...wasn't aware there were such tendencies. At least, not on a population wide basis. I, for instance, never thought of it in those terms. I certainly don't consider myself superior to other people, at least not because of my intelligence. I do tend to look down on those who are content to go through life without doing, learning or experiencing all that they can, but that's about the extent of it. In other words, fools.

On the other hand, I also don't immediately assume, quite illogically in my opinion, that since I don't have the knowledge or ability to understand it yet that there is something greater and that it has a personal interest in me. Why can't existence just have happened? Admittedly, I have no idea why or how it could have started, but I am more than willing to try and find out instead of being complacent and just trusting in a higher power. No offense intended to the religious that may be reading this, it's just that I don't and probably will never understand how you can stand just having faith that it is as your diety has said.
darkarcher
Moderator
#297   Posted 2 months agoReply
I certainly don't consider myself superior to other people, at least not because of my intelligence.
I didn't mean over other people. I meant as a species.
I don't and probably will never understand how you can stand just having faith that it is as your diety has said.
I assume you're asking why I personally believe in a deity, so that's what I'll answer.

From an objective standpoint, I believe that there's a God because I don't see how such order in the universe could have resulted from a random event. The Big Bang theory honestly doesn't make any sense to me. There are just too many basic holes in the logic. Chaos does not bring forth order. Order gradually descends to chaos. So, something most likely created that order in the first place.

As for why I believe in Christianity as the correct religion concerning God, it comes down to personal experience, which really isn't valid in debating so I won't go there unless specifically asked.
agrajagthetesty
#298   Posted 2 months agoReply
They have yet to be observed and proven.
True in the case of the Big Bang, not so true for evolution. But proof is a very slippery thing. Why do you think courts settle for "beyond reasonable doubt"? That's where evidence comes in. Of course, no-one was around to observe the Big Bang, but that doesn't mean that there is no evidence for it. What people so often fail to grasp is that if a theory doesn't match the facts, the scientific community will discard it before the public even become aware of it. And personally, I like to think that a person with a degree and doctorate in astrophysics who has spent their entire life striving to look at the evidence objectively has more authority to decide whether a theory is plausible than someone with only a high school knowledge of the field.

As for evolution, it has in fact been observed, most famously in the case of peppered moths, and in bacteria developing resistance to antibiotics. Yes, people say that this is only evidence of "micro-evolution", but the only difference between "micro" and "macro" evolution is the timescale. We cannot imagine what an effect tiny differences would make over time. But that's only because we don't live long enough.

Other than the observed cases, there is plenty of evidence in the anatomy of animals to suggest that they all have a common ancestor. In fact, I think I may have brought some of them up on this thread already. If not, just ask and I'll give you the examples I can remember off the top of my head.
darkarcher
Moderator
#299   Posted 2 months ago, in reply to post #298 by agrajagthetestyReply
On the subject of the Big Bang, most of my objections have to do with common physics, primarily momentum and gravity, which make the proposed timescale of the universe less-than-physically possible.
As for evolution, it has in fact been observed, most famously in the case of peppered moths, and in bacteria developing resistance to antibiotics.
This is just natural selection within a species. The moths do not "evolve" to become black. The black moths merely are able to reproduce more and create a larger part of the population. It's not as if the species is changing. It's merely a natural segment of the species that survives longer, but that doesn't mean the species has changed.
there is plenty of evidence in the anatomy of animals to suggest that they all have a common ancestor.
...which is a matter of observation. Some people look at it and say, "They must all have come from the same animal," while others can just as easily say, "They must have been commonly designed by a creator."
Tatterdemalion
#300   Posted 2 months agoReply
This is just natural selection within a species. The moths do not "evolve" to become black. The black moths merely are able to reproduce more and create a larger part of the population. It's not as if the species is changing. It's merely a natural segment of the species that survives longer, but that doesn't mean the species has changed.
Evolution =/= speciation

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